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Ala75146
Salut,

Pana acum am condus un Oltcit timp de 12 ani si sincer nu ma pricep la motoare - dar invat repede. biggrin.gif

Am zis sa scap de el si sa iau un Matiz la mana a doua. Toate bune si frumoase pana la socul automat. Eu is lemn daca ma intelegeti la capitolul acesta si vreau si eu sa va rog sa imi explicati ce face acel soc automat si mai ales de ce dupa pornire ramane turat motorul veo 5-10 secunde dupa care scade la normal.

Haideti ca sincer ma intereseaza.

beer.gif
f1anatic
QUOTE(Ala75146)
va rog sa imi explicati ce face acel soc automat si mai ales de ce dupa pornire ramane turat motorul veo 5-10 secunde dupa care scade la normal.

Haideti ca sincer ma intereseaza.

beer.gif


CREDE SI NU CERCETA !
Ala75146
Stai ca nu am inteles. Pe cuvant, ce ai vrut sa spui ?.
f1anatic
QUOTE(Ala75146)
Stai ca nu am inteles. Pe cuvant, ce ai vrut sa spui ?.


Scuza-ma. Am fost rautacios prima data si rau inspirat. Pai pe bune...tu ce faceai cu socul inainte ? Daca e automat...ce rost are sa intrebi ?

Toate masinile noi, moderne au soc automat. Primele minute dupa ce pornesti vor sta turate iar turatzia poate sa si varieze in functzie de cum este de cald afara, de ce benzina ai pus etc. Rolul este ca sa nu se opreasca motorul, sa se ajunga mai repede la parametrii optimi de functzionare. In aceasta perioada, computerul masinii reverifica totzi senzorii sa vada daca totul e OK. Nu itzi recomand sa te misti din loc pina cind nu scade turatzia (daca la tine este 10 de secunde...atunci ...10 de secunde recomand sa stai pe loc cu motorul pornit). Eu personal stau pe loc chiar si 3 minute dupa ce am pornit motorul (dupa un timp indelungat de repaus) - dar sa stii ca sint anormal.
James Kilowatt
Matiz are motor pe injectie, nu are un soc in adevaratul sens al cuvantului. Are doar un program care atunci cand aerul si apa sunt reci comanda timp mai lung de injectie si deci amestec mai bogat. Pe masura ce se incalzeste, timpii de injectie scad. (la mine la nubira la relenti la rece timpii de injectie sunt pe la 5ms, iar la cald, pe la 1.8ms)

In plus, relentiul e reglat de un ventil actionat de un motoras pas cu pas (IAC -Idle Air Control) care e controlat tot de calculator, si tot functie de niste parametri. Din motivul asta se poate tura putin de capul lui si fara sa fi apasat pe acceleratie, si nu ai control direct asupra lui. Masinile si mai moderne (inclusiv nubira Euro3) nu au IAC ci MTIA, adica un mecanism electric prin care calculatorul actioneaza direct asupra clapetei de acceleratie.

Matiz nu are soc ca la masinile cu carburator, care sa obtureze admisia de aer si sa forteze masina sa traga benzina mai multa prin depresiune din carburator si imbogateasca astfel amestecul. Ai vazut probabil la Oltcit, cand tragi socul se inchide o clapeta in carburator, sus, imediat dupa filtrul de aer. Matiz nu are asa ceva.
Unele masini CU CARBURATOR au ceea ce se cheama soc automat, adica un dispozitiv care inchide si deschide clapeta aia automat insa nu stiu exact cum functioneaza si ce parametri conteaza. Cred (desi nu sunt sigur) ca Tico are soc automat.
mihai58026
socul automat pe autoturismele italienesti mai vechi functiona pe baza unui senozr bimetal.. avea o legatura sub forma unui furtunas [un circuit cu apa.. atat timp cat apa statea sub o anumita temperatura, socul ramanea actionat. in momentul in care apa trecea de o anumita temperatura<parca 18' C, dar nu bag mana in foc> senzorul respectiv, pe principiul termostatului inchidea circuitul apei..
asa in mare [daca sunt greseli, retineti ca nu sunt mecanic]
se gasea pe alfa 75 si pe lancia prisma sistemul, deci oamenii mai priceputi in asemenea masini pot explica mai multe
Meditatorul
la fel este si la ford sierra!
Ala75146
Multumesc frummos pentru raspunsuri.

Am mai observat la un vecin cu un Tico la care statea si mai turat turat si un timp mai mult.

Oricum, am inteles. Si deci toate masinile raman mai turate dupa pornire ?. Ca la Logan de exemplu nu am observat si am condus cateva. Sa nu fi fost eu atent ?.
Alnaibii
depinde ce inseamna la tine turat.
pejoul meu sta cateva secunde pe la 1100, apoi scade la 800. se aude un pic altfel, intradevar, dar nu e de speriat.
James Kilowatt
Incercati un experiment. O data bagati cheia in contact si porniti imediat, si alta data faceti pornirea ca la carte. Adica, bagat cheia, pus contact, asteptapt pana se sting becurile si pornit dupa. La mine, in al doilea caz ramane putin turat cateva secunde. Probabil in timpul in care astept cu contactul pus, ECM-ul deschide IAC-ul ca sa fie sigur ca motorul porneste. Daca il iau repede si pornesc din prima nu ramane turat, probabil nu apuca sa deschida IAC-ul. Insa e doar o teorie, nu am dovezi care sa o sprijine.
Ala75146
QUOTE(Alnaibii)
depinde ce inseamna la tine turat.
pejoul meu sta cateva secunde pe la 1100, apoi scade la 800. se aude un pic altfel, intradevar, dar nu e de speriat.


Pai sa spun asa (estimativ) vreo 4-5 mii rpm sa tot fi avut.
mihai58026
4-5000 rpm?!?!?!
daca a avut 1800-2000, mare lucru
la 4-5000 de rpm nu mai e problema de IAC sau alte sisteme care sa ajute pornirea.. mai degraba problema de talpadepiciordeplumb sau de cablu blocat
parerea mea...
James Kilowatt
Mihai are dreptate.
Rezolva repede problema, ca un motor care se tureaza la rece imediat dupa pornire la 5000rpm poate sa crape a naibii de repede.
Ala75146
Stati baietzi ca este vorba despre masina unui vecin, ma doare-n spate.

Si sa revenim la "subect", oare de ce nu am sesizat la un Logan nou (condus de mine) turatia mai ridicata la pornire ?, adica pornea dimineata direct de pe la 900-1000.
Horia49540
Asta depinde de caracteristicile motorului, diagrama de distributie, avans etc
Dacia porneste chiar si fara soc vara si merge rotund pana se incalzeste bine (si asta mai ales pt ca are avans zero)
Lada, chiar daca sunt 40 grade afara, nu porneste la rece (motor oprit cel putin 8 ore) fara soc tras…
mihai58026
vorbim de motoare din generatiii diferite...
oricum, ideea este ca socul automat face exact ceea ce ar trebui sa faca soferul cu socul manual
Horia49540
sigur, sunt constient de acest lucru, dar cum si tu ai zis, un motor cu 4 in linie de 1769cmc (sa zicem biggrin.gif ) cu x cai putere va avea nevoie de un anumit dozaj aer-benzina pentru a functiona bine la x grade decat un motor tot de 1769 cmc , tot cu x cai, dar produs de o alta firma, cu alta diagrama de distributie, alta forma a camerei de ardere etc. :wave:
mike.omega
QUOTE(Ala75146)
Stati baietzi ca este vorba despre masina unui vecin, ma doare-n spate.

Si sa revenim la "subect", oare de ce nu am sesizat la un Logan nou (condus de mine) turatia mai ridicata la pornire ?, adica pornea dimineata direct de pe la 900-1000.


Pai e masina ta sau nu?! blink.gif

Daca ridici capota la matiz o sa observi ca deasupra motorului e o chestie, o cheam injectie si din cate stiu eu tine loc si de soc.
Daca ridici capota la tico(acelasi motor ca si la matiz) o sa gasesti filtrul de aer deasupra motorului si sub el un carburator, mai destept decat muuuulti mecanici de la noi din tara. Ala are soclu automat care functioneaza dupa nu stiu ce valva si functioneaza chiar si in 2 trepte, in functie de temperatura de afara. In momentul in care soclul este in functiune, sa zic asa, turatia este undeva la 1500rpm, aprox ca n-am turometru blush.gif

PS: carburatoarele cum e cel de pe tico se regleaza pe banc si atat, eu am incercat la o reprezentanta Daewoo si mi-au zis ca n-au scule pt asa ceva tongue.gif laugh.gif :bash:
r4mp
QUOTE(Ala75146)
Pai sa spun asa (estimativ) vreo 4-5 mii rpm sa tot fi avut.


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif iti zic eu ca Tico ( in stare buna de functionare ) are maxim 1.400 rpm iarna la pornire si dureaza cam 2 minute biggrin.gif . Asa .. estimativ ... pt ca am avut mama mea tico 7 ani biggrin.gif Si deh .. orice motor se aude umpic altfel la aceeasi turatie atunci cand e rece ( 2000 ture abia pornit - 2000 ture cand e la parametri optimi ) si cum la tico izolatia sux, e normal sa il auzi mai tare :minigun:

ps: tico are soc automat , dar nu are turometru blush.gif
James Kilowatt
E vorba de matiz, nu de tico smile.gif
mihai58026
DE FAPT E VORBA DE AMANDOUA!! biggrin.gif
tico era al unui vecin, parca, iar Matizozaurul al lui Ala 75...
r4mp
QUOTE(Ala75146)
Am mai observat la un vecin cu un Tico la care statea si mai turat turat si un timp mai mult.


hehehe! :minigun: MR! oricum nici matizul nu e departe de tico ... sa fie oare mai greoi " warm-up`ul " la motoarele mici? la mine, la pornire suna exact ca un diesel!! dar odata ajuns motorul la parametrii optimi ... este complet schimbat blink.gif ca sa nu mai zic de 3000 - 6900 ture cand se aude absolut superb wub.gif
James Kilowatt
Pai la matiz si la tico problemele sunt diferite. La unul socul e controlat de bimetalul ala si n-ai ce-i face, si la celalalt de calculator si tot n-ai ce-i face biggrin.gif La tico insa e soc pe bune, la matiz doar un program.
Daca tico e ala care urca la 4000rpm, e mai usor de verificat daca e masina sau soferul de vina smile.gif
sorin37756
Da, Tico are termosoc, dar merge 300-500 mii km. Dupa 2-3 minute motorul abia se mai aude. Consuma 4-6 %.
La 100.000 km in oras, megand cu Tico in loc de Logan, faci economii la benzina in valoare de 3.800 euro, adica 4 litri inmultit cu 1000.
mike.omega
@MR: socul de tico se poate regla, vezi alalalt forum biggrin.gif
James Kilowatt
Bineinteles ca se poate regla smile.gif Orice se poate regla, pana si naveta spatiala smile.gif Eu voiam sa spun ca nu ai control direct asupra lui de la volan, ca la Dacia, nu ca nu se poate face nimic blush.gif
mike.omega
Aaa, da! inteleg ce zici tu biggrin.gif
Stiu cum e cu dacia cu socul manual :angel:
eddie
De-aia e mai bun cel automat !
Sa vezi ce reglabil e ala manual cand ramai cu el in mana !? Scapase doar cablul din surubul de strangere....
Nu am patit-o la Dacia,ci la Oltcit...trasesem juma' de metru de cablu in masina si motorul tot statea sa moara !!! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
cioaba
eu la dacie nu-l puteam impinge la loc, ca se indoise sarma, si degeaba o indreptam ca la impins tot pe vechea indoitura o lua. biggrin.gif
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