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Sisteme AWD, care e cel mai bun?

This topic is about Sisteme AWD, care e cel mai bun?, the author, Iulian HondaFan, wrote about: Quattro/4motion : In 1980, Audi introduced the world to full-time all-wheel drive to volume-produced passenger cars. It was called quattro. Now in its ... To read more just scroll down

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> Sisteme AWD, care e cel mai bun?
Iulian HondaFan
post Jun 4 2005, 02:14 PM
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Quattro/4motion:

In 1980, Audi introduced the world to full-time all-wheel drive to volume-produced passenger cars. It was called quattro. Now in its fourth generation, Audi's quattro® permanent all-wheel drive directs power where and when it's needed.

Under ideal conditions power is split 50/50 front to rear. But in extreme cases up to 67% of the engine's power can be directed to a single wheel. The benefits to the driver are safety, performance, power, and control in copious amounts.

When cornering, all four wheels of a car must cover varying distances. The task of the center differential is to compensate for the differences between front and rear axles, and to distribute engine power between front and rear wheels. The center differential is the heart of Audi's permanent all-wheel driveline. Depending on the driving situation and road conditions, the system automatically regulates the distribution of power within milliseconds. This takes place by means of either (depending on model) the Torsen; differential, Haldex™ clutch, or hydraulic multi-plate clutch. Influencing parameters in the control process include engine speed and torque, wheel spreads, and longitudinal and lateral acceleration.

The division of propulsive power between all four wheels is the basis of the excellent handling and safety of Audi models with quattro. The potential of this drive concept is further optimized by a series of control systems for brake and engine management:


The Anti-lock Brake System (ABS)
Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD)
Electronic Differential Lock (EDL)
Anti-Slip Regulation (ASR)

All of the above assist in increasing traction when accelerating or braking. Furthermore, when cornering, the standard Electronic Stabilization Program (ESP) increases directional stability by comparing target and actual physical driving forces.

The locking function of the center differential and the Electronic Differential Lock make sure that an Audi with quattro; all-wheel drive can still pull away with only one wheel able to transfer engine power to the road.

Here's how it works: If one of the wheels on an axle loses grip and starts spinning, propulsive power has to be diverted to the other wheel by the axle's differential. Previously, a mechanical differential lock enabled this to take place. Now, the Electronic Differential Lock has replaced the mechanical lock, effectively transferring the excess power of the spinning wheel to the other wheels with better traction.

On an Audi with quattro, if both wheels on an axle start spinning, the continuously controlled locking of the center differential ensures that most of the torque is transmitted to the other axle. In this way, propulsion is guaranteed in almost all situations.

On an Audi with quattro, if both wheels on an axle start spinning, the continuously controlled locking of the center differential ensures that most ( adica 67%) of the torque is transmitted to the other axle. In this way, propulsion is guaranteed in almost all situations.

dupa audiusa.com

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cineva spunea ca diferenta intre 4motion si quattro este Haldex vs. Torsen. Se pare ca e inexact. Torsen este folosit pentru transmisia de la motoare dispuse longitudinal in timp ce Haldex este folosit pt. motoare dispuse transversal.


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f1anatic
post Jun 4 2005, 03:13 PM
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Dr. Iulian, apreciez interventzia. Sugerez, pt. ca sintetzi o persoana poate mai impartziala decit noi ceilaltzi -muritori de rind - (adica nu avetzi nici Subaru, nici BMW, Space Shuttle sau OZN) sa scrietzi si un articol (sau sa il gasitzi) pe net despre Subaru (eu am mai postat in celalalt "thread" citeva link-uri). In final, doresc sa transformatzi acest thread intr-un poll care sa includa cel putzin:

AUDI (Quattro si 4Motion)
SUBARU (Symmetrical AWD)
MERCEDES (4-Matic)
BMW (daca au un nume al lor)
ACURA (2006 RL - Super Handling AWD)
LEXUS (GS430 asta noul pe 2006)
OTHER (sau daca avetzi alte sugestii)

si sa lasam publicul sa decida. Categoric, e putzin probabil ca preferintzele personale sa se schimbe datorita acestui topic dar macar vom avea o opinie despre ce gindesc membrii www.masini.ro despre sistemele AWD. Sugerez includerea de sisteme AWD numai la masini (nu cross-over, SUV, Caterpillar sau mai stiu eu ce).

Multzumesc.


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Watcher
post Jun 4 2005, 04:23 PM
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Pai un poll nu are ce sa rezolve. Cel mult arata ce cred oamenii. Datele de genul de mai sus au o relevanta pentru a forma o opinie.


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Iulian HondaFan
post Jun 5 2005, 06:46 PM
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dupa autowrold.com

All Subaru models sold in the U.S. feature the Subaru All-Wheel Driving System. This system consists of several subsystems working in harmony to ensure maximum traction availability without any driver input. Unlike many four-wheel drive or all-wheel drive systems, the Subaru all-wheel drive system consists of power transfer mechanisms that are small enough to fit inside the transmission case. These small components not only hold down weight and power loss, but also ownership costs of Subaru vehicles, as no extra maintenance is required for the system.

Subaru all-wheel drive works differently in manual and automatic transmissions. Read on for more technical information.

All-Wheel Drive (Automatic Transmission)

Active all-wheel drive is a term coined by Subaru to differentiate the all-wheel drive system in the automatic transmission from other "reactive" all-wheel drive systems on the market today. What makes this all-wheel drive system so special is its ability to anticipate traction needs and act before a wheel slips.

The mechanism that transfers torque fore and aft is contained within the transmission’s tailshaft. To the casual observer it looks just like a typical hydraulic clutch found in any automatic. The key difference in this clutch pack is its operation. It’s designed to slip according to how much all-wheel drive is needed. When an automatic’s clutch slips, it is due to a malfunction and will eventually burn up. But the multi-plate transfer (MPT) clutch uses a special friction material that easily withstands the friction loads generated during torque transfer.

The MPT’s operation is controlled by the Transmission Control Unit (or TCU) and constantly changes dependent on how the vehicle is being driven. To get more all-wheel drive, the TCU increases the hydraulic pressure to the clutch for less slippage. Less all-wheel drive calls for more slip and the TCU reduces the hydraulic pressure to the clutch.

Under normal, dry pavement operation torque split is about 90% front and 10% rear. This distribution helps to compensate for the car’s weight distribution and resultant smaller effective rolling diameter of the front tires. As weight transfers to the rear of the vehicle, (i.e., under acceleration), the TCU shifts the torque split more toward the rear wheels. Under hard braking, torque is directed forward. Torque distribution is changed based upon how the vehicle is being driven. Throttle position, gearshift lever position, current gear and other factors combine to influence the TCU and it, in turn, selects a software map that determines how aggressively torque split will be adjusted.

Two speed sensors are used by the TCU to detect wheel slippage. One sensor monitors the front axle set, the other the rear axle set. Pre-programmed variables help the TCU differentiate between slipping wheels and normal wheel speed differentials as what occurs when cornering. A speed differential (front-to-rear) of up to 20% signals the TCU that the vehicle is cornering and torque is distributed to the front wheels to help increase traction during the turn. Anything above 20%, however, indicates to the TCU that wheel slippage is occurring and torque is then distributed to the rear wheels.

Another feature of the all-wheel drive system is its interaction with the anti-lock brake system. When ABS is engaged, the transmission selects third gear, reducing the unpredictability of engine braking and, thus, reducing the possibility of wheel lock-up. But all four wheels are still connected to the engine through the AWD system and are brought back up to overall vehicle speed quicker and can, therefore, be controlled again sooner. In a two-wheel drive system if the locking wheel isn’t a drive wheel, it can only be brought back up to overall wheel speed by whatever traction exists between it and the road. The quicker a wheel is controlled the better the stopping performance.

All-Wheel Drive (Manual Transmission)

The 5-speed manual transmission’s all-wheel drive is referred to as a continuous all-wheel drive system. It uses a center differential located inside the transmission case that is controlled by a viscous coupling device. In effect, the center differential is a limited-slip differential.

In normal operation, power is distributed equally to the front and rear wheels. Plates are alternately attached to the front and rear output shafts inside the viscous coupling. When a rotational difference occurs between the front and back wheels, the plates inside the viscous housing shear inside the contained fluid (a type of silicone) heating it and causing the fluid to thicken. The thickened fluid causes the plates to transfer torque from those that rotate faster (the slipping wheels) to the plates that rotate slower (the wheels with the best traction).

This no-maintenance system is simple, compact and virtually invisible in its operation. The system can distribute torque from a 50:50 torque split for maximum traction to mostly front or rear wheel drive.


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James Kilowatt
post Jun 6 2005, 08:27 AM
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Seamana cu 4x4 de la fiat panda biggrin.gif tot viscocuplaj, tot tractiune fata in mod normal si integrala cand e nevoie biggrin.gif

Acum la modul serios, cred ca toata lumea care face acum 4x4 folosesc sistemul asta sau ceva asemanator. Nu cred ca mai face nimeni masini cu tractiune integrala si diferentiale "chioare"


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Iulian HondaFan
post Jun 6 2005, 01:20 PM
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pai, quattro/4motion merg pe diferentiale mecanice desi unele au si dif. cu vascocuplaj. si e de remarcat ca sistemele chiar in cadrul aceleasi firme pot fi chiar diferite ceea ce face aprecierea lor si mai dificila.


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Iulian HondaFan
post Jul 1 2005, 05:05 AM
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sa reluam discutia cu o chestie asupra careia mi-a atras atentia George ( multzam fain):

ATTESA-ETS, sistemul AWD al Nissan care e original prin faptul ca variaza cuplul transmis fata:spate de la 0:100 pana la 50:50.

spre deosebire xi al BMW transmite pe spate maxim 62%, 4matic al Mercedes 60% iar quattro numai 50% din cuplu. asta inseamna RWD pe vreme buna si AWD pe zloata, deic cel mai bun compromis intre utilitate si sportivitate pentru un AWD. singurul minus fata de RWD este greutatea mai mare care rapeste ceva din zvacnirea initiala.

ca eficienta mecanica: consumul este numai cu 1mpg mai mare fata de RWD pur in cazul G35. pt. cine nu stie de G35 trebuie sa adaug ca este nemesis-ul lui serie 3 precedenta (E46 in lingo-ul BMW) in cateva teste comparative in reviste americane de prestigiu ( Car&Driver, Motor Trend, Road&Track).

http://www.nissannews.com/infiniti/2004veh...5/awdtech.shtml

Nissan Skyline/ Infiniti G35x vin cu acest sistem. Bonus este faptul ca Nissan pune prin el pe asfalt 280 de ponei produsi de super-motorul sau 3.5l V6 ( de care am povestit pe motorhead exclusive area)...


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G e o r g e
post Jul 1 2005, 07:44 AM
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yes , true ... ti-am dat ceva interesant .

si mie mi-a atras atentia altcineva despre dansul biggrin.gif

super mistoc ATTESA smile.gif


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bogdan47077
post Jul 1 2005, 12:00 PM
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QUOTE(f1anatic)
AUDI (Quattro si 4Motion)
SUBARU (Symmetrical AWD)
MERCEDES (4-Matic)
BMW (daca au un nume al lor)
ACURA (2006 RL - Super Handling AWD)
LEXUS (GS430 asta noul pe 2006)
OTHER (sau daca avetzi alte sugestii)

Multzumesc.



la BMW se numeste X !
si la other sa punem si 4x4 de pe dacia (mai ales papauc, unde scrie ca nu il poti conecta din mers si vit max pe cuplaj 4x4 este de 4o km/h)
hai sa votam!
sunt pentru x de la bmw..e singurul cu care am mers mai tare si am vazut ca se tine bine! era un 325ix mai vechi.
am mai mers cu un audi, dar era A6 si nu am mers f.tare sa-mi dau sema cum se tine pe drum si un merc taxiu 4 matic, dar nu mi-am dat seama de diferente!..in rest, habar n-am!
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Iulian HondaFan
post Jul 1 2005, 01:56 PM
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daca stii multe despre x al BMW go ahead... pune-l pe hartie sa vedem ce poate...


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cosmin45741
post Jul 1 2005, 04:23 PM
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A typical planetary-type transfer case on a traditional all-wheel-drive (AWD) system has a fixed torque distribution such as 40% front/60% rear. If the rear axle is on slippery ground and loses traction completely, the front axle with good grip cannot transfer torque to the ground because of the behavior of the planetary-typr transfer case. So brake
intervention is needed to slow down the spinning axle and transfer torque to the other. That can take up to 0.5 s.
The fixed distribution remains—40% is transferred to the ground and 60% is “burned” in the brakes.

The BMW xDrive, now standard on the X5 and the new X3, can deliver
100% torque shift in 0.1 s, and there is no fixed torque distribution. So in the zero-traction situation described above, the rear axle does not spin and the entire engine torque is delivered to the front axle. BMW engineers determined that engine torque takes about 200 ms to
build after application of a change in Speed is key to xDrive brains
throttle position, so they set a goal for the xDrive to achieve a 100 ms reaction time.
Traditional AWD solutions could not meet this goal. Magna Steyr Powertrain supplies the electronically controlled multi-plate clutch actuated by an electric motor for the xDrive. To manage the
rapid shifting of torque in demanding driving situations, the controller (a
TMS470 microcontroller from Texas Instruments) checks the level of torque to the front wheels every 20 ms, according to Thomas Hopper, xDrive engineer at BMW.

The design philosophy of the xDrive technology is to deliver optimum
distribution of torque at every split second of driving. Control is determined by the rotational speed of each wheel, steering angle, throttle position, brake light switch, vehicle yaw and lateral acceleration, and engine output torque.

The secret of the xDrive’s ability to improve driving dynamics under a wide variety of conditions lies in the programming of the controller. The BMW engineers analyzed many situations to determine the
optimum contribution from all four driving wheels in each case to help the driver control the vehicle. So the controller knows
the instantaneous requirement for torque to the front wheels. Based on the engine output, the multi-plate clutch position, and the individual wheel speeds, adjustments are made.

xDrive was designed to improve handling, not just traction, and can
significantly reduce both understeer and oversteer in dynamic driving. For example, if undesirable oversteer is sensed, the multi-plate clutch closes completely, sending maximum torque to the front
wheels. If excess understeer is detected, the clutch opens completely, leaving no torque at the front wheels. Because of the rapid response time, all this takes place in less time than it takes the engine to react
to a change in throttle position, so the driver can enjoy the benefits without knowing what the system is doing.
Under conditions of uneven traction, the control system can bring in the
dynamic stability control (DSC) to intervene by reducing engine torque and applying individual wheel braking. BMW engineers noted that DSC is much less active on vehicles fitted with xDrive, validating their goal of anticipating trouble rather than dealing with it after it occurs, and justifying the title of intelligent all-wheel-drive.


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Iulian HondaFan
post Jul 1 2005, 04:38 PM
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ce nu e clar e cat transfer poate face fata spate. in Motor Trend am vazut ca X nu transfera decat maxim 62% pe spate.

primul paragraf citat de tine se refera la sistemele AWD vechi. nici unul dintre producatorii curenti nu mai face AWd cu ratie fixa. toti permit un transfer de putere de pe fata pe spate da din cate stiu nici unul nu transmite 100% pe spate, sunt cateva care merg 100% pe fata.


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cosmin45741
post Jul 1 2005, 04:40 PM
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The BMW xDrive, now standard on the X5 and the new X3, can deliver
100% torque shift in 0.1 s, and there is no fixed torque distribution. So in the zero-traction situation described above, the rear axle does not spin and the entire engine torque is delivered to the front axle.


100% variabil biggrin.gif


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Iulian HondaFan
post Jul 1 2005, 04:49 PM
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100% pe fata face si sistemul de pe Honda CR-V, si cel de pe Nissan Murano si altele. eu spun daca e 100% pe spate. la asta ma refeream.

acu' nu'sh daca are o importanta asa de mare dar pentru sprint daca pui toata puterea pe spate e cel mai eficient ( exceptand pana in 20-30km/h unde AWD are timpi mai buni). de aceea i-urile cu aceleasi motorizari de la BMW sunt mai rapide decat Xi-urile. si diferentele par a fi mai mari decat cele rezulate numai din greutatea cu 1-200kg mai mare a xi-urilor.


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G e o r g e
post Jul 1 2005, 05:35 PM
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http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThrea...0&tID=10306


un link SUPER interesant biggrin.gif

despre timpi scosi pe circuit. daca rasfoiti forumul veti gasi timpi pentru mai multe circuite.

foarte dragut este sa vezi cum se comporta acele masini pe circuit:D


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Valentin50014
post Nov 19 2005, 12:33 AM
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QUOTE(Iulian HondaFan)
iar quattro numai 50% din cuplu. asta inseamna RWD pe vreme buna si AWD pe zloata,

Iulian, link-ul Nissan mi-a lasat un gust amar. Este destul de jenant sa-ti lauzi noul tau sistem AWD facand o comparatie cu un model al concurentei ceva mai vechi.
Quattro nu este sub AWD al Subaru, Nissan, sau BMW, ci, cred eu, deasupra lor. Foarte apropiat de Subaru dar peste ceilalti din concurenta....

Apropo, Quattro permite transferul tractiunii intre 0-100 si 100-0, deci ceea ce se scrie in acel link este deformat, daca doresti informatii despre sistemul AWD al Audi nu trebuie sa te uiti pe situl Nissan...


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Iulian HondaFan
post Nov 19 2005, 01:40 AM
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la care Quattro te referi? din cate stiu pe A4 si A6 se foloseste diferentialul Torsen care face transfer maxim de 67/33 pana la 33/67 (vezi primul post). nu am gasit nicaieri explicat de Audi cat transfer maxim pot face pe spate. probabil ca datele date de Nissan sunt inexacte cu numai 50% pe spate ( sau se refera la variante Quattro mai vechi) dar sistemele cu Torsen nu pot impartii cuplul mai mult de ratia respectiva din start.

100% fata si spate nu face nici un sistem... ai vreun link?


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Valentin50014
post Nov 19 2005, 01:50 AM
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Sunt mai multe genreatii de AWD la Audi, ca mai peste tot. Haldex face demult 0-100 si 100-0. Cu noul quattro torsen, si acesta din urma i-a calcat pe urme.
Scuza-ma, ca nu mai raman in aceata noapte, dar este destul de tarziu aici. Maine, la prima ora am sa incerc sa gasesc ceva, sper sa nu ma fi inselat... blush.gif

P.S. Maxim 50-50 nu mai e demult la Audi, jenant pentru Nissan...


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Iulian HondaFan
post Nov 19 2005, 01:54 AM
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Haldex este folosit numai pe TT si A3 din cate stiu ( si similar 4 motionul Passat actual si Golf4 R32, Octavia, Golf5 4 motion, etc.).

articolul respectiv este din 2003.

nu-i graba. somn usor!


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Paul46623
post Nov 19 2005, 12:05 PM
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In stare initiala, Haldexul este un simplu FWD (100/0). Atunci cand modulul de control detecteaza ruperea aderentei, sistemul transfera putere spre osia spate pana la 100%. TORque SENding nu poate face asta (asa cum a spus si Iulian, este limitat la 34/66-66/34), insa la el puterea este in mod normal distribuita 50/50.
Din cate stiu, X-ul de la BMW beneficiaza de faptul ca in mod normal distribuita greutatii la multe modele este deja f aproape de 50/50 (ratia este cam 52/48 daca imi aduc bine aminte); asta ii usureaza oarecum 'munca'.
Stie cineva daca sistemul Integrale de pe Lancia e de tip TORSEN ?


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