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VW Golf TDI Hybrid

This topic is about VW Golf TDI Hybrid, the author, f1anatic, wrote about: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/01/geneva-...brid-leaks-out/ Tehnologia (turbo)-diesel-electric-(hibrid) este folosita de zeci de ani pe locomotive si ... To read more just scroll down

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f1anatic
post Mar 2 2008, 06:57 PM
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http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/01/geneva-...brid-leaks-out/

Tehnologia (turbo)-diesel-electric-(hibrid) este folosita de zeci de ani pe locomotive si submarine. E timpul.

69 mpg ...3.5 L%


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ozz86651
post Mar 2 2008, 10:19 PM
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Suna bine pina te uiti la putere smile.gif. Daca s-ar aduna amindoua motoarele la maxim de putere cind ai nevoie poate ar fi ok, dar tot sint numai 100CP pe o masina grea plina de baterii.
Cu alte cuvinte in materie de performante cred ca e tot acolo cu masini diesel pur care consuma 1-2l% in plus da fara probleme de schimbat baterii dupa citiva ani samd.


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Laurentiu_007
post Mar 2 2008, 10:48 PM
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E un inceput promitator as spune. Oricum de apreciat gestul.
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ValiR
post Mar 3 2008, 07:00 PM
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E deja o moda sa ai o versiune hybrid in oferta, majoritatea constructorilor lucreaza sau asa ceva.
Pana si Porsche o sa aiba o versiune Cayenne hybrid.
Insa pana va si convinge sistemul respectiv cred ca va mai dura ceva.
Ca orice tehnologie noua e mai scumpa si nu stiu daca inca justificata(ex. Prius, care e destul de scumpa
si inca nu e foarte cumparata)


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James Kilowatt
post Mar 3 2008, 09:29 PM
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Nu-i vorba numai de moda, cel putin in nemti a bagat Angela spaima cand a spus ca vrea sa limiteze emisiile de CO2 si sa taxeze in nestire tot ce depaseste pragul acceptat... imediat industria auto germana a inceput sa caraie, si cateva luni mai tarziu au inceput toti sa declare ca vor scoate modele hibride...
Pana la urma initiativa nu-i rea, desi nu-i nici completa. Eu astept sa descopere primul politician ca poluarea nu inseamna numai CO2, mai sunt si alte chestii care pot fi descurajate smile.gif


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f1anatic
post Mar 3 2008, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE(James Kilowatt @ Mar 3 2008, 01:29 PM) *
Nu-i vorba numai de moda, cel putin in nemti a bagat Angela spaima cand a spus ca vrea sa limiteze emisiile de CO2 si sa taxeze in nestire tot ce depaseste pragul acceptat... imediat industria auto germana a inceput sa caraie, si cateva luni mai tarziu au inceput toti sa declare ca vor scoate modele hibride...
Pana la urma initiativa nu-i rea, desi nu-i nici completa. Eu astept sa descopere primul politician ca poluarea nu inseamna numai CO2, mai sunt si alte chestii care pot fi descurajate smile.gif



Ar trebui sa vezi THE GREAT GLOBAL WARMING SWINDLE

Eu as lucra si la consum in paralel cu emisiile; dar in timp ce ele sint legate una de alta, as incuraja o gindire independenta care sa puna accentul pe redusul consumului.



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ozz86651
post Mar 4 2008, 07:47 AM
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De fapt nu-s asa legate: motoarele reglate cu amestec slab/lean au arderi la temperaturi mari si fac NOx.Noxe.


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James Kilowatt
post Mar 4 2008, 08:15 PM
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Si particule.. chiar si benzinarele cu injectie directa si amestec lean. Viitoarele norme euro au derogare la particule pentru benzinarele cu injectie directa si amestec lean.

This post has been edited by James Kilowatt: Mar 4 2008, 08:23 PM


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FAR EASTERN
post Mar 22 2008, 01:16 AM
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One of the less pie-in-the-sky concepts of this year?s Geneva International Motor Show (although the Rinspeed sQuba car was rather cool) is this VW Golf TDI Hybrid.

This version of the Golf (a model known as the Rabbit over here) uses an electric motor system similar to that of the Toyota Prius but mates that to a clean and frugal 1.2-liter, three-cylinder diesel-powered engine. Bottom line, in a European fuel economy test cycle, the Prius achieves 54 miles per gallon. This VW could get 69, an improvement of about 28%.

VW says a hybrid diesel car might make it into production in the near future ? for the European market. Its U.S. debut looks a little farther off, however. That?s because federal emissions laws are tougher, so more effort has to go into making diesel engines cleaner. This is reflected in sticker prices. According to VW, its 2009 diesel Jetta will sell for $2,000 more than a gasoline-powered equivalent model.

Another factor that might make the American buyer wary is resale value. A conventional diesel-powered car keeps its value pretty well (because its engine generally has greater longevity), whereas a hybrid tends to depreciate somewhat faster than a mainstream model. A marriage of the two will have an outcome no one can predict.

As drivers become more familiar with new technologies and learn to embrace them, these obstacles should sort themselves out. If diesel?s popularity continues to rise, more oil-burning cars will be made, production costs will decline and companies can price their products at more tempting levels.
Source: latimesblogs.latimes.com

asa poate se implineste visul unora de a avea diesel hybrid.
daca mai apucam. confused.gif

This post has been edited by FAR EASTERN: Mar 22 2008, 01:20 AM


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HalbaSus
post Mar 22 2008, 08:49 AM
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golf.. 1.2... diesel... hibrid... probabil va consuma putin, si probabil va fi ecologic... dar e la fel de probabil ca o bicicleta va fi mult mai rapida... probabil viteza acestui golf va fi comparabila cu cea a mersului pe jos...
La capitolul asta trebuie sa recunosc ca toyota a inteles mai bine caracteristicile unei masini ecologice... o masina ecologica nu e una care pur si simplu consuma putin/nu polueaza... este una care functioneaza ca o masina, singurele diferente fiind la capitolul consum si poluare... cu prius aproape ca au reusit acest lucru, lexus a picat in extrema cealalta cu 400h-ul (adica functioneaza ca o masina foarte buna, dar consuma mai mult decat o masina normala)... in schimb un golf cu motor 1.2 diesel NU va functiona ca o masina. Va functiona ca o tricicleta motorizata care nu doar ca nu va fi cu mult mai rapida decat tricicleta dar va si polua mai mult.


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leroux
post Mar 22 2008, 09:05 AM
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QUOTE(HalbaSus @ Mar 22 2008, 08:49 AM) *
... lexus a picat in extrema cealalta cu 400h-ul (adica functioneaza ca o masina foarte buna, dar consuma mai mult decat o masina normala)...


Ma tem ca lucrurile nu stau in realitate exact asa cum spui tu halba... consuma cu mult, mult mai putin decat orice masina din acelasi segment: 18,2 % l/100 km la liniute... 15,5 la drum lung cu depasiri in forta (masurati pe un parcurs Bucuresti - Koln) si aprox. 12 in Bucuresti. Spune-mi te rog un alt suv de 2 tone cu peste 250 cai care face treaba asta...?!

Intr-adevar, cred ca este totusi ceva mai mult decat Golf 2.0 TDI, dar in comparatie cu Golf GTI am rezerve...


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James Kilowatt
post Mar 22 2008, 09:13 AM
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Din ce scrii acolo, consumul in Bucuresti e foarte bun. Insa cel la drum lung scartaie. Cum spuneam, hibridele nu prea mai au nici un avantaj la drum lung si viteze mari, avantajul lor e in uras.


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leroux
post Mar 22 2008, 09:40 AM
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In carte stiti ca astia de la Lexus se lauda cu 9 in oras si 8 afara. Eu am dat consumuri reale in conditiile in care:
1. nu am utilizat cruise control
2. de la granita cu Ungaria si pana la Bucuresti media a sarit cu aprox. 20 % - de la 13 la 15.5 (stiti cu totii cum e cu TIR-urile in Romania)
3. pe autobahn am mers foarte rar sub limita setata de dealerul US (115 mph)

Cu siguranta daca este utilizat mai "potolit" 400h scoate valori inferioare la consum decat ce-am constatat eu.


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HalbaSus
post Mar 22 2008, 09:42 AM
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Leroux, e adevarat ca RX400h consuma mult mai putin decat SUV-urile cu motorizari similare (in oras, pentru ca la drum lung si Touareg-ul 3.6 280 cp consuma 11-15% pe drumuri nationale/europene si 15-17% pe autostrada la viteze cuprinse intre 150 si 180) dar daca vrei o masina ecologica NU ITI IEI SUV DE 2 TONE. Sunt o groaza de masini care consuma si polueaza mai putin si au performante similare cu RX400h fara a avea motorizari hibride. E ca si cum ai spune ca tii cura de slabire cu ceafa de porc la gratar cu cartofi copti la cuptor... pentru ca aceasta mancare e mult mai sanatoasa decat snitzelul de porc de porc cu cartofi prajiti... In principiu e adevarat... dar comparativ cu o salata de ton sau un gratar de vita cu salata de rosii ambele sunt hypercalorice.


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leroux
post Mar 22 2008, 10:27 AM
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Nu sunt convins ca doresc intram in vesnicele polemici... Dar la momentul cumpararii nu am gasit altceva mai bun care sa aiba urmatoarele caracteristici (cu prioritizarea aratata de mai jos):
1. suficient de mare (sa incapem si noi si copiii si tricicletele lor, colaci, catel, olite si bagaje)
2. fiabila (am condus RAV mult timp si sper RX sa fie cel putin similar d.p. asta d.v.)
3. consum relativ redus (prin natura serviciului merg, in medie, peste 70 mii pe an)
4. suficient de puternic (sa pot sa remorchez o barcuta sau altceva fara sa-mi fie frica ca va trebui sa merg cu 60 la ora)
5. pret anual de utilizare
6. pret de achizitie sh (nu mai veche de 2 ani si nu mai mult de 50k km)
7. o imagine buna fara posibilitatea de a se face asocieri rau-voitoare (chiar daca personal nu am idei preconcepute de felul asta, din pacate, multi clienti de-ai mei au)

De felul meu nu prea dau multi bani pe treaba asta cu poluarea (pe vremea lui Adam Smith, cand se intampla "revolutia" industriala, mediul a inceput sa fie de zeci de mii de ori mai poluat decat in secolul 18 si cu mult mai poluat decat astazi. Totusi nu ne-a crescut al saselea deget la mana si nici orizontul mediu de viata nu a scazut).

Concret, (probabil multi ma vor blama) nu mi-am luat RX400h ca sa protejez mediul ci din motivele expuse mai sus.


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T u d o r
post Mar 22 2008, 10:51 AM
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One of the pair: the C4 diesel hybrid. As promised, PSA Peugeot CitroŽn unveiled two prototypes featuring diesel-electric parallel hybrid powertrains, the Peugeot 307 and the CitroŽn C4 Hybride HDi.

The hybrids deliver average combined city and highway fuel consumption of 3.4 liters per 100 kilometers (69 mpg US), with 90 grams of CO2 emitted per kilometer—a tank-to-wheel record for compact cars, the most popular segment in Europe. This is about 25% better than a similar vehicle equipped with a gasoline hybrid system, or as much as a liter per 100 kilometers in combined city and highway driving.

Hybrid technology using a petrol engine is not very competitive financially, and does not offer significantly better fuel economy or CO2 emission performance than a conventional HDi diesel engine. However, PSA Peugeot CitroŽn believes that combining a hybrid powertrain with an HDi engine would constitute a step change in terms of improved fuel economy and lower CO2 emissions in Europe, where diesel engines are already widely used.

—PSA Peugeot CitroŽn statement
PSA Peugeot CitroŽn’s Hybrid HDi technology includes:

  • 1.6-liter HDi engine and diesel particulate filter system (DPFS)
  • New-generation Stop & Start system (earlier post)
  • Electric motor and inverter
  • High-voltage battery pack
  • Dedicated control electronics
  • All-electric mode for speeds under 50 kilometers an hour (31 mph)
  • Driver selection of Extended ZEV (Zero Emission Vehicle, i.e., all-electric) mode
  • Electronically-managed gearbox
PSA Peugeot CitroŽn Parallel Hybrid Architecture. Click to enlarge. The engine. The prototype marks the first combination of the 1.6-liter, 66 kW HDi engine with the latest generation Stop & Start system. The company added a dedicated control system to the engine, using operating instructions coordinated directly by the powertrain management unit (PTMU), most notably for engine starts and stops, while also guaranteeing delivery of the torque required by the driver.

The engine, with the diesel particulate filter system (DPFS), meets Euro-4 standards.

Stop & Start system. The Stop & Start system used in the Hybride HDi powertrain is based on the technology integrated in both the CitroŽn C2 and C3. The new system has 40% more power than the first generation to support the easier starting of the 1.6-liter diesel.

In the hybrid powertrain, the Stop & Start system restarts the ICE. While the Stop & Start function is only used on the C3 when the vehicle is stationary, the engine stop function can occur at any given moment on the Hybride HDi, as soon as the vehicle’s speed falls below 60 kilometers an hour (37 mph).

Electric motor and inverter, The synchronous permanent magnet electric motor develops 16 kW of continuous power, with 80 Nm of torque. It offers peak power of 23 kW and 130 Nm to meet occasional demand from the driver.

PSA Peugeot CitroŽn opted for the volume and performance of the motor to ensure that the all-electric mode would be used for speeds up to 50 kilometers per hour—a speed typical of city driving.

Connected to the inverter, the motor operates in a voltage range from 210 to 380 volts. In the restricted space available, this electric motor/inverter does not enable use of the conventional engine cooling circuit, whose typical temperature is too high. Water cooling is therefore provided by a special radiator and a low-temperature cooling circuit at 60įC.

For main road and highway driving, the electric motor can provide a 35% power boost for extra acceleration.

Battery system. The battery pack consists of 240 NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) cells that deliver 23 kW of power at a nominal voltage of 288 volts. The cells are cooled by special air intakes that recover air from the passenger compartment, taking advantage of its temperature control.

There is also a conventional 12V storage battery, which continues to handle its usual functions.

The high-voltage battery pack fits in the rear part of the Group’s platform 2 vehicles (base for the Peugeot 307 and CitroŽn C4) in place of the spare tire, following a slight modification to the cut-out in this compartment. Adding the batteries does not reduce trunk capacity for any of the vehicles.

All-electric mode: Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV). The driver can use a special switch to access an extended all-electric mode that expands the operating range for the vehicle in this mode. In this case, the ICE is only activated for more prolonged acceleration.

The extended all-electric mode is de-activated either automatically, when the high-voltage battery pack no longer has a sufficient charge, or manually, by using the dedicated switch.

Economics and Future. PSA Peugeot CitroŽn says that while it could market its Hybride HDi vehicles as early as 2010, the introduction is dependent upon its ability to make the technology available at an affordable price.



Today, the price gap between a Hybride HDi model and a comparable diesel HDi model is still too wide and would have to be halved to make diesel hybrid vehicles accessible to most consumers.

The Group is planning a two-pronged approach to reach that goal:

  • Extensive R&D on the four areas that generate most of the extra cost: high-voltage batteries, electric motor/generator, inverter and the regenerative braking system.
  • Unite the expertise of equipment manufacturers and research laboratories to focus on this project.
PSA Peugeot CitroŽn has asked the French Agency for Industrial Innovation to support the project.

Comparing Fuel Consumption and CO2 Vehicle Conventional C4/307 Hybride HDi % Difference Engine 1.6-liter, 80kW 1.6-liter, 66kW -17.5% Acceleration 0–100km/h 12.4 sec 12.4 sec – Acceleration 30–60 km/h 5.8 sec 3.5 sec -40% Fuel consumption combined cycle 4.7 l/100km 3.4 l/100km -28% CO2 emissions combined cycle 125 g/km 90 g/km -28% Fuel consumption city cycle 5.4 l/100km 3.0 l/100km -44% CO2 emissions city cycle 145 g/km 80 g/km -45%


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FAR EASTERN
post Mar 22 2008, 11:11 AM
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Extraordinar!
Se poate spune ca e Europa vs. Japonia.
Foarte frumos din partea PSA si VW. Chestia e ca in timp ce unii viseaza abia, Prius are deja 10 ani. band.gif


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QUOTE (f1anatic @ Oct 16 2006, 10:16 PM) *
Daca chiar vrei sa salvezi planeta...cumpara un Prius sau Civic ...

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T u d o r
post Mar 22 2008, 11:29 AM
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Nu asta era scopul postului meu, nu incercam sa minimalizez avantajul si valoarea marcilor japoneze care produc deja de destul timp hibride. Ce am dorit sa spun e ca si europenii au vazut avantajele acestui tip de masina si s-au apucat si ei serios de munca. Ceea ce e bine, concurenta naste calitate.

Oricum, PSA va scoate pe piata modelul abia prin 2010, asa ca deocamdata niponii sunt singuri pe piata. Nu ca Europa s-ar fi dat peste cap sa cumpere Prius sau Civic Hybrid, din cauza pretului destul de prohibitiv comparat cu al altei compacte, fie ea de unde o fi. Asta e motivul pentru care PSA amana lansarea modelelor HDI Hybride, nu au reusit inca sa aduca pretul la un nivel acceptabil. Pana una alta, piata hibridelor ramane America. smile.gif


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James Kilowatt
post Mar 22 2008, 12:48 PM
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Constructorilor europeni le-a cam intrat morcovu' (exact acolo unde ii doare de mediu). Acum cateva luni au inceput sa latre politicienii despre limitarea emisiilor de CO2 si despre suprataxarea a tot ce depaseste 120g/km (initial)... in prima faza au incercat lobbyul contra initiativei (mai ales de catre germani) iar in faza a doua toata lumea scoate hibride, de la PSA la Porsche. Buni si politicienii astia la cate ceva, uneori.... da' rar biggrin.gif


Eu din primul modele de Prius, cel 2000-2004 nu am vazut nici un exemplar. Sigur s-a comercializat si p-aici? Modelul 2004 a inceput sa fie destul de raspandit, insa cel dinainte nu l-am vazut niciodata pe strada.


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FAR EASTERN
post Mar 22 2008, 12:59 PM
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Hey, T u d o r, nu am vrut cu nici un chip sa minimalizez eforturile europenilor, Doamne fereste. Oricum, am vrut ca tonul sa fie admirativ.
Inteleg ca eforturile de a scoate in productia de serie sunt imense. Totusi, daca incercarile alor nostri af fi inceput(sau ar fi vrut sa le inceapa) mai devreme, toata lumea ar fi avut doar de castigat. Inclusiv Planeta Mama.
Chiar azi a fost un documentar pe NGC despre ce s-ar putea intampla daca temperaturile ar creste cu doar trei grade. Brrrrrrrrrrrrr..........

Si ca sa amintesc de ce spunea James la un moment dat, disparitia pinguinilor si a balenelor ar fi cele mai mici probleme........


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QUOTE (f1anatic @ Oct 16 2006, 10:16 PM) *
Daca chiar vrei sa salvezi planeta...cumpara un Prius sau Civic ...

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