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BMW - EDL versus LSD ?

This topic is about BMW - EDL versus LSD ?, the author, Impulse, wrote about: Mercedes-Benz G5 four wheel drive vehicle featuring full time 4WD, four wheel steering, three differential lockers, independent supension front and re ... To read more just scroll down

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Impulse
post Aug 11 2006, 04:58 AM
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Mercedes-Benz G5 four wheel drive vehicle

featuring full time 4WD, four wheel steering, three differential lockers, independent supension front and rear
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Impulse
post Aug 11 2006, 04:59 AM
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Fulltime 4WD, 3 differentials, three differential locks, for wheel steering, independent suspension on all four wheels, I-4 with 48HP
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Impulse
post Aug 11 2006, 05:02 AM
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Mercedes and BMW introduced really sophisticated four wheel drive vehicles in 1926!

G1, G4 si G5 au fost primele AWD ale Mercedes iar primul, respectiv G1 a aparut in 1933. De aici s-a si pastrat denumirea de clasa G.
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Impulse
post Aug 11 2006, 05:18 AM
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Radule, ti-am dat exemple de istorie. Recunosc ca am profitat de confuzia pe care o faci intre sistemele de tractiune. Dar macar in acest fel poti sa afli cine sunt stramosii. Poftim cateva explicatii care sa te ajute in diferentierea lor.

4WD and AWD systems explained

4WD has been invented a very long time ago and various concepts have been tried. Here is a simplified synopsis of what is what. They are all 4WD, but have been given different names. Links within this page provide detailed insight.

Part time 4WD is a system that can only be used part of the time in four wheel drive.
This 4WD system was created to provide a vehicle with more traction to either carry higher loads and/or to travel in adverse terrain conditions. Clearly purpose built to do hard work. It can only be used for adverse terrain conditions - not for dry pavement.
Typical lever settings are 2WD, 4WD Hi, 4WD Lo.
Very good off-road. Most competent when combined with axle differential locks.
• 2WD setting must be used on dry pavement.
• If 4WD is selected, all 4 wheels are permanently powered.

Full time 4WD can be used full time on all surfaces including pavement.
Full time 4WD was created to provide a vehicle with more traction and to make 4WD more useful for everyday life. It is also called permanent 4WD. The additional feature of a differential incorporated into the transfer case makes it possible to use 4WD all the time.
2WD is no longer available. Can still be a strong workhorse. Some rough terrain competence is retained - the priority is added stability as a safety gain for everyday driving.
Typical lever or switch settings are 4WD Hi, 4WD Lo. Very good off-road when center diff is lockable. Even better when combined with axle differential locks.
• All 4 wheels are permanently powered.

Full time symmetric AWD is similar to full time 4WD - only it lacks the slow speed torque enhancing low range feature. Can be used full time on all surfaces including pavement.
Symmetric AWD was created as a safety feature for modern day vehicles. Not designed for hard work. Clearly a safer, more comfortable vehicle. Rough terrain competence has almost vanished - focus is on added stability and performance.
Limited use for off-road.
• All 4 wheels are permanently powered.

Automatic asymmetric AWD was created solely as a stability enhancing system. Auto AWD can be used full time on all surfaces including pavement. AWD only briefly activates automatically when stability threatening conditions arise. Essentially a 2WD car with 2WD handling characteristics. Absolutely no adverse terrain capabilities. Clearly built for added road stability and safety.
Not recommended for off-road beyond graded dirt roads.
• 2 wheels are powered most of the time
• 4 wheels are only temporarily powered.

Many vehicles are offered with a combination of the systems outlined.
There is no commonly accepted standard - companies and especially their PR departments use terms for 4WD systems very loosely - tranparent consumer information is not their priority.
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radu66490
post Aug 11 2006, 08:02 AM
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impulse nici nu ma intereseaza ce tip de tractiune 4x4 are,atat cat e permanenta,zau iti spun
la fiecare tip au avantaje si dezavantaje,la fiecare sunt pareri contradictorii,de ce?
pt ca diferenta dintre ele e mica,probabil insesizabila pt un sofer de rand ca noi
de experienta...din cate stiu eu bmw a inceput sa echipeze timid 325-ul pe la inceputul anilor `90 dar asta nu inseamna ca e proasta!!!!


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G e o r g e
post Aug 11 2006, 12:39 PM
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impulse noi vorbim de masinile care se gasesc la vanzare de noi in curtile dealerilor smile.gif

de ce vorbim de ele ? ca altfel ce ar fi un forum fara impunsaturi si discutii aprinse biggrin.gif


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Watcher
post Aug 11 2006, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE(radu66490)
impulse nici nu ma intereseaza ce tip de tractiune 4x4 are,atat cat e permanenta[...]diferenta dintre ele e mica,probabil insesizabila pt un sofer de rand ca noi


Eu zic ca diferentele nu sunt deloc insesizabile:
a) cu 4WDLO nu poti sa iei viteza
cool.gif cu 4WDHI consumi mai mult decat cu 2WD
c) daca ai diferential(e) blocabile si le blochezi, masina se conduce mai greu - vireaza urat- si tocesti anvelopele
d) daca ai vreo minunatie de 'AWD' ca pe Volvo Cross Country ai dat banii cam degeaba - a pus F1anatic un clip acu ceva vreme.
e) modul de functionare al AWDului influenteaza cum trebuie sa conduci masina.

Toate astea trebuie sa le stii ca sofer obisnuit daca vrei sa nu it *** masina, la fel de mult cum trebuie sa stii ca se schimba vitezele daca nu ai cutie automata, ca trebuie schimbat uleiul, ca trebuie schimbate pneurile, etc...


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f1anatic
post Aug 11 2006, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE(Impulse)
Full time symmetric AWD is similar to full time 4WD - only it lacks the slow speed torque enhancing low range feature. Can be used full time on all surfaces including pavement.
Symmetric AWD was created as a safety feature for modern day vehicles. Not designed for hard work. Clearly a safer, more comfortable vehicle. Rough terrain competence has almost vanished - focus is on added stability and performance.
Limited use for off-road.
• All 4 wheels are permanently powered.

Automatic asymmetric AWD was created solely as a stability enhancing system. Auto AWD can be used full time on all surfaces including pavement. AWD only briefly activates automatically when stability threatening conditions arise. Essentially a 2WD car with 2WD handling characteristics. Absolutely no adverse terrain capabilities. Clearly built for added road stability and safety.
Not recommended for off-road beyond graded dirt roads.
• 2 wheels are powered most of the time
• 4 wheels are only temporarily powered.

Many vehicles are offered with a combination of the systems outlined.


Si acum dragii mosului, sa spunem povestea pina la capat. Cum clasificam masinile in functzie de definitziile lui Impuls? Lasam 4WD ca alea's la SUV-uri si camioane ! Vorbim de AWD-ul la masinile mici !

Incepem cu BMW X drive? Permanent sau Automatic ?


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fishbone
post Aug 11 2006, 11:16 PM
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*raises hand shyly*
De ATTESA nu zice nime nimic?


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f1anatic
post Aug 12 2006, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE(fishbone)
*raises hand shyly*
De ATTESA nu zice nime nimic?


Infinity e o simulatzie de masina...o copie nereusita nascuta din invidia pentru masinile germane. A mentziona ATTESA in acelasi thread cu X Drive, Quattro, 4-Motion si 4-Matic este un afront adus bunului simtz !

PS: - nu ai auzit-o de la mine
ATTESA, SH-AWD si Symmetrical FTW


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Valentin50014
post Aug 12 2006, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE(f1anatic)
Infinity e o simulatzie de masina...o copie nereusita nascuta din invidia pentru masinile germane. A mentziona ATTESA in acelasi thread cu X Drive, Quattro, 4-Motion si 4-Matic este un afront adus bunului simtz !

PS: - nu ai auzit-o de la mine
ATTESA, SH-AWD si Symmetrical FTW


Nu merita amintita pentru ca intr-adevar este un sistem vechi pe care Infiniti il folosea cu succes prin anii '90. Pentru Subaru, intr-adevar, este state of the art.

Daca tot vrei sa zici ceva, spune de ATTESA E-TS de pe Skyline, FX, G35. Este un sistem AWD modern si performant... pardon e electronic, probabil un surogat al adevaratului ATTESA.

Fraierii de la Infiniti i-au mai pus si ESP + traction control. Vezi, asta e diferenta dintre o marca exclusivista, Subaru, si marcile de 2 lei (rest of the world).


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fishbone
post Aug 12 2006, 04:59 PM
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ATTESA a fost folosita pentru prima oara pe Nissan 1987 RNU12 Bluebird (CA18DE) si este sistemul de tractiune care a facut Skyline-ul legendar.
Din pacate, cu implementarea sta mai prost, putem numara pe degetele de la o mana modelele care beneficiaza de asa ceva. Eu sper ca pe viitor baietii de la Nissan se vor ocupa de acest sistem de tractiune putin mai mult si eventual sa vedem o expansiune a implementarii. E pacat.
QUOTE
The ATTESA E-TS layout is more advanced than the ATTESA system, and uses a 16bit microprocessor that monitors the cars movements at 100 times per second to sense traction loss. Three G-Sensors mounted underneath the centre console feed lateral and longtitudinal inputs into an ECU. The ECU can then direct up to and including 50% of the power to the front wheels. When slip is detected on a wheel, the system directs the torque away from that wheel to one that has traction. Torque is apportioned using a clutch pack center differential, similar to the type employed in the Steyr-Daimler-Puch system in the Porsche 959.


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Valentin50014
post Aug 13 2006, 08:44 AM
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"Este o prostie de transmisie, asculta la mine. Iata de ce:

1. este un surogat electronic a nemuritorului diferential cu vacocuplaj. Bine, nu mai are nici o legatura cu acesta, dar trebuia amintit si maestrul.
2. are Active Brake Limited Slip (o alta denumire pompoasa data surogatului de EDL);
3. are ESP. O inventie impotriva placerii de a conduce menita sa ascunda imperfectiunile trenului de rulare. Rusine Infiniti!
4. este part-time. In conditii normale este RWD. Cum toti specialisti in AWD de aici considera full-time > part-time (pornind de la considerentul ca este mai bine sa ai un job full-time decat unul part-time) este clar ca sistemul este slab.

Norocul celor de la Infiniti este acela ca specialistii au o atentie selectiva. Intervin numai cand e vorba de Audi si BMW (spre rusinea lor, Mercedes nici nu merita deranjul iar Porsche se consulta intotdeauna cu Subaru inainte de a scoate ceva nou ... deh, boxeristii astia); blush.gif

Iata argumente imbatabile care dovedesc exclusivismul Subaru. Nici macar marcile premium nipone (cele germane oricum n-au nici o sansa) nu-i ating nivelul tehnologic. "

Uff, s-a facut dimineata... trebuie sa plec la scoala.
Nippon wagen macht fraieri !!!


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f1anatic
post Aug 13 2006, 04:02 PM
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QUOTE(Valentin50014)
...comentarii fara rost...


Doresc domnului Valentin50014 si familiei sale multa sanatate, fericire, putere de munca si realizari in tot ce isi propun ei.

In priviintza activitatzii sale pe forumul Masini.ro ii doresc lui Valentin50014 numai "pene" de Internet lungi si dese ! biggrin.gif


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Impulse
post Aug 13 2006, 04:48 PM
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Nici eu nu consider ca inferior un sistem ce lucreaza part time in dauna unuia full time. Masinile sunt facute cu anumite caracteristici definitorii.
Eu am mai spus-o si cu alta ocazie ca gasesc la BMW una dintre cele mai bune retete de transmisie integrala: daca terenul este uscat este un veritabil RWD adica isi pastreaza caracterul specific BMW de tractiune spate fiind prin definitie o masina sportiva. Daca terenul este alunecos atunci sistemul isi face treaba suficient de bine incat sa te scoata din necaz. Culmea este ca o face foarte bine!

Unii imping lucrurile la extrem declarand ca sistemul este prost etc. Cred totusi ca nu exista printre noi dintre cei care considera ca BMW nu este in stare sa il faca similar cu al altora sau nu poate...
Pur si simplu aceasta este varianta cea mai fericita din punctul meu de vedere intrucat in acest fel ai doua masini intr-una: Un BMW RWD vara si un AWD iarna care are insa grija ca senzatia de RWD sa existe in permanenta.

Bottom line, nu stiu cum se face ca cei ce cumpara un X-Drive sau un 4Matic stiu ce cumpara si sunt multumiti. La urma urmei nemtii au multe de oferit de la sistemele 4Matic, Quattro sau XDrive pana la sportivele gen Porsche 911 Turbo S AWD.
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fishbone
post Aug 13 2006, 05:35 PM
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Eu nu faceam o comparatie a sistemului ATTESA cu sistemul de la Subaru deoarece si eu prefer o masina AWD full time daca imi caut AWD si stiu ca baietii de la Suby se concentreaza destul de bine pe tractiune in timp ce baietii de la Nissan/Infiniti se pare ca o fac in treacat, la fel ca multi ce implementeaza asa ceva. ATTESA am adus in conversatie cumva separat, mai mult sa vad unde se duce discutia deoarece sistemul il cunosc doar in linii mari.
Mai e o problema cu ATTESA. Deoarece este un sistem atat de limitat [read: scomp la reparatii] si greu de lucrat, nu se prea merita implementarea si folosirea in raliu.
QUOTE
The ATTESA system featured in the east-west layout vehicles, such as the Pulsar GTiR and the Bluebird Attesa modification, is quite similar to vehicles from other manufacturers. Drive passes from the gearbox to a centre differential, which is then split to a front differential in the transfer case and via a tailshaft to a rear differential.

This more conventional layout provides a 50:50 split between front and rear and utilises a centre viscous limited slip differential to aid grip in slippery conditions. This system is comanly used in Nissan vehicles that are also available as front wheel drive models. This system is full time mechanicl 4wd.

ATTESA ET-S Pro e cea noua:
QUOTE
Although the Skyline GT-R is exclusivley 4wd, ATTESA E-TS is also used in Nissan models that are also available as RWD such as the A31 Nissan Cefiro. Drive to the rear wheels is constant via a tailshaft and rear differential, however drive to the front wheels is more complex by utilising a transfer case at the rear of the gearbox. The drive from the transfer case then passes through a shaft to the front differential which is located inside the engines sump, which then passes drive to the front wheels via drive shafts.

Rather than locking the AWD in all the time or having a system that is "all or nothing", the ATTESA E-TS system can apportion different ratios of torque to different wheels as it sees fit. This provides the driver with an AWD vehicle that performs like a rear wheel drive vehicle in perfect conditions and can recover control when conditions aren't as perfect. The advantage to a more traditional ATTESA (Viscous LSD) system is response in hundredths of a second.


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air_wolf
post Aug 13 2006, 07:37 PM
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hai la AMC la tunari sa vedeti ce inseamna sa conduci cu spatele blocat.
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f1anatic
post Aug 13 2006, 07:52 PM
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ATTESA-ETS suna a Symmetrical VTD (Variable Torque Distribution).
http://www.jbskyline.net/R32/GTR/index2.php#attesa
QUOTE
ATTESA-ETS

The GT-R uses an electronically controlled all-wheel-drive system (similar to Porsche's 959). A 16-bit microprocessor monitors the car's movements a 100 times per second, including wheel rotation and lateral as well as longitudinal acceleration. When slip is detected at a driving wheel, the system electronically distributes torque from this spinning wheel to one without slip.

In this case the electronic AWD-system offers the advan-tage that actions are enacted much faster than by a viscous-coupling-system (we're speak-ing of hundredths of a second here). In standard setup, ATTESA-ETS distributes the torque to the rear-wheels, but when slip is detected on one of those rear-wheels, it can distribute up to 50% of the torque to the front wheels, i.e. it can adjust the front/rear torque-split from anything between 0:100 to 50:50. Among the rear-wheels, an active LSD can further distribute the torque from one wheel to the other if necessary.Due to this setup, the Skyline GT-R can even drift, although it is an AWD car.


Greseala pe care o fac filozofii mioritici este o perpetua judecata pastorala in priviintza AWD Subaru. Viscocuplajul este oferit pe unele masini; nu pe toate; in unele diferentziale, nu pe toate. A mentziona DCCD oferit Subaru bineintzeles ca nu va face decit ca iarba sa creasca mai lunga si mai verde !

More on ATTESA-ETS


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Iulian HondaFan
post Aug 15 2006, 10:42 AM
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iarasi... io am obosit. oricum AWD full time este altceva decat AWD part time. iar diferentialele deschise sut altceva decat cele deschise cu EDL. alegerea tine de fiecare.

pentru a risipi confuziile: Hummer1 vine cu Torsen pe punti fata si spate ( deci nu are diferentiale deschise).


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AZAZEL
post Jul 29 2008, 07:45 PM
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ia sa dezgrop eu ceva morti !
pana la urma este ceva de capul tractiunii integrale de la bmw ?
ma refer la masini de rand gen 3330 xd , 530 xd, 325 xi.

pt ca pe forum la bmw oamenii sustin ca tractiunea integrala de la bmw ar fi cam cea mai buna din lume.

are cineva ceva informatii despre cum sta x drive fata de quattro?
ce avantaje si dezavantaje ar avea fiecare ?
despre 4 matic comparativ cu cele doua ?

parerile subiective nu se iau in considerare.


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